The “Holographic” Universe: The Full Series

It might be useful to put the complete 5 part “workshop” series called “The Holographic Universe”, which I mentioned in an earlier comment, in one convenient location which I will do here.

Bear in mind that the comparison of ourselves and our reality with a hologramme is a metaphor, albeit a more appropriate metaphor than the “Clockwork Universe”, or the current fashion of comparing the universe to a computer simulation. In a sense, Holographic Universe, Clockwork Universe, or the Computer Universe are techno-rational mythologies — summary symbolic forms, appropriate to a techno-rational mentality, that serve to facilitate comprehension. Metaphors are always only translations. It’s the very meaning of the word “meta-phor”. A metaphor (to carry across) is a “bridging” concept or symbol. Nonetheless, the holographic metaphor is a great improvement over the Clockwork metaphor.

Because it is a metaphor that the narrator here, Stephen Davis, tends to take far too literally at times, it also tends to result in distortions or part-truths. I don’t concur with everything Mr. Davis says, but what I perceive to be his errors or half-truths are not greatly damaging, although they do hinder broader understanding.

The series is lengthy. Each part is almost two hours in length. It’s perhaps not surprising given it is an ambitious attempt to integrate research and discoveries from physics, biology, neurology, psychology, philosophy, even theology, etc into a unified paradigm or integral model whose totem emblem is the hologramme.

As also mentioned in an earlier comment, if you are familiar with the Seth books, with William Blake, Jean Gebser, or with the writings of Carlos Castaneda (and even Nietzsche), certain ideas and discoveries expressed here will resonate deeply. In regards to Nietzsche, not only did he not believe in the solidity of matter, the meaning of his discourse on the higher self (in the chapter from Thus Spake Zarathustra entitled “The Despisers of the Body“) will become recognisable in the course of the series, and will, if properly appreciated, provide greater insight into his broader philosophical concerns and interests than the all-too-typical interpretations.

It may also be helpful, while watching the series, to review at some point my earlier reposting of Castaneda’s final statement regarding his own experiences as described in the 30th Anniversary Commentary to his Teachings of Don Juan. Familiarity with all of Castaneda’s writings, however, would be quite beneficial in extracting the richer significance of “The Holographic Universe”.

Here are the workshops, Parts 1 to 5, in proper succession. I look forward to your own insights and comments,

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48 responses to “The “Holographic” Universe: The Full Series”

  1. LittleBigMan says :

    This is all very helpful. Thank you.

  2. Scott Preston says :

    This article, entitled “Philosophy isn’t dead yet”, appeared this morning in The Guardian. It’s quite pertinent to the themes in “The Holographic Universe”.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/27/physics-philosophy-quantum-relativity-einstein

    I’ve finished viewing the 5 part series. Part 4 is pretty dodgy. More interesting than Mr. Davis’ dubious speculations and statements (which are often quite trite and oversimplified) are the interviews with the physicists, psychologists, and biologists. One gets the impression that for Mr. Davis, the goal of “the Human Game” is money and sex, and not learning the responsible handling of creative energy and creative potency (those purposes that become confused with money on the one hand and sex on the other).

    Enjoy the interviews, but be wary of some of Mr. Davis’ inferences.

    • srosesmith says :

      Thank you so much, Scott, for recommending this series. Yesterday I watched the first part (my longest continuous sitting at this screen that is not my favorite medium) and remembered well the excitement this metaphor first brought in the seventies. I’ll see the rest and look forward to your commentaries.
      Sharon
      To LittleBigMan : I didn’t mean to imply in my last post that I enjoy only smooth sailing!

      • srosesmith says :

        I just now read the excellent Raymond Tallis (in The Guardian) statement and want to add to what I said above that when I enjoy these discussions using the hologram metaphor, I never stop remembering the (to me) even more intuitively ringing-true words of Seth in which he reminds us that our perceptions are totally space/time-bound and that our experience of vast distances, for example, are illusory — that millions of light-years are not in some out-there space but are inner realities — artifacts of our very own consciousness. I love it!

  3. LittleBigMan says :

    “To LittleBigMan : I didn’t mean to imply in my last post that I enjoy only smooth sailing!”

    Hi Sharon. My apologies if my comment seemed to make that implication. I can certainly see how my use of the word “lucky” may have given that meaning. What I meant to say was that for the vast majority of people, life is bitter-sweet. At least, I can say that for anyone I know. But when things get stuck on the bitter side for decades, you kind of wonder what’s going on. I finally realized what it was all about. It was all about learning what Scott has called “surrendering to infinity” in the past. And you also, have apparently realized this, given what you said regarding a quote in that same comment to which you are referencing. Here it is:

    ““If energy flows in a certain way, to follow the flow of energy is…being functional.” : This isn’t just a ’60s slogan, the easy “Go with the flow.” Each time I’ve refrained from the impulse to object to and oppose What Is, and “follow the flow of energy” I’ve been glad I did.”

    Yes. Indeed.

    Thank you for giving me the chance to clarify my comment 🙂

  4. Scott Preston says :

    The most important lesson to take away from Part 1 of the Holographic Universe, which is the information about the “Field”, is what you will find in the text of Castaneda’s 30th Anniversary Commentary to which I linked to in the article above. The relevant passage is as follows, and it is equally a description of how the “holograph”, as it were, functions. The point was most strongly brought out by Dr. John Hagelin, but almost everyone interviewed added some important facet to the overall picture. Here is don Juan’s,

    “To perceive energy directly [as it flowed in the universe] allowed the sorcerers of don Juan’s lineage to see human beings as conglomerates of energy fields that have the appearance of luminous balls. Observing human beings in such a fashion allowed those shamans to draw extraordinary energetic conclusions. They noticed that each of those luminous balls is individually connected to an energetic mass of inconceivable proportions that exists in the universe; a mass which they called the dark sea of awareness. They observed that each individual ball is attached to the dark sea of awareness at a point that is even more brilliant than the luminous ball itself. Those shamans called that point of juncture the assemblage point, because they observed that it is at that spot that perception takes place. The flux of energy at large is turned, on that point, into sensorial data, and those data are then interpreted as the world that surrounds us.

    When I asked don Juan to explain to me how this process of turning the flux of energy into sensory data occurred, he replied that the only thing shamans know about this is that the immense mass of energy called the dark sea of awareness supplies human beings with whatever is necessary to elicit this transformation of energy into sensory data, and that such a process could not possibly ever be deciphered because of the vastness of that original source.

    What the shamans of ancient Mexico found out when they focused their seeing on the dark sea of awareness was the revelation that the entire cosmos is made of luminous filaments that extend themselves infinitely. Shamans describe them as luminous filaments that go every which way without ever touching one another. They saw that they are individual filaments, and yet, they are grouped in inconceivably enormous masses.

    Another of such masses of filaments, besides the dark sea of awareness which the shamans observed and liked because of its vibration, was something they called intent, and the act of individual shamans focusing their attention on such a mass, they called intending. They saw that the entire universe was a universe of intent, and intent, for them, was the equivalent of intelligence. The universe, therefore, was, for them, a universe of supreme intelligence. Their conclusion, which became part of their cognitive world, was that vibratory energy, aware of itself, was intelligent in the extreme. They saw that the mass of intent in the cosmos was responsible for all the possible mutations, all the possible variations which happened in the universe, not because of arbitrary, blind circumstances, but because of the intending done by the vibratory energy, at the level of the flux of energy itself.

    Don Juan pointed out that in the world of everyday life, human beings make use of intent and intending in the manner in which they interpret the world. Don Juan, for instance, alerted me to the fact that my daily world was not ruled by my perception, but by the interpretation of my perception. He gave as an example the concept of university, which at that time was a concept of supreme importance to me. He said that university was not something I could perceive with my senses, because neither my sight nor my hearing, nor my sense of taste, nor my tactile or olfactory senses, gave me any clue about university. University happened only in my intending, and in order to construct it there, I had to make use of everything I knew as a civilized person, in a conscious or subliminal way.

    The energetic fact of the universe being composed of luminous filaments gave rise to the shamans’ conclusion that each of those filaments that extend themselves infinitely is a field of energy. They observed that luminous filaments, or rather fields of energy of such a nature converge on and go through the assemblage point. Since the size of the assemblage point was determined to be equivalent to that of a modern tennis ball, only a finite number of energy fields, numbering, nevertheless, in the zillions, converge on and go through that spot.

    When the sorcerers of ancient Mexico saw the assemblage point, they discovered the energetic fact that the impact of the energy fields going through the assemblage point was transformed into sensory data; data which were then interpreted into the cognition of the world of everyday life. Those shamans accounted for the homogeneity of cognition among human beings by the fact that the assemblage point for the entire human race is located at the same place on the energetic luminous spheres that we are: at the height of the shoulder blades, an arm’s length behind them, against the boundary of the luminous ball.”

    In later parts of the series, we’ll actually see this “intent” at work, when we come to the neurological experiment conducted on the BBC presenter that so confounded and perplexed him — when the experimenter showed him that, 6 seconds before he had made a conscious decision to press one button or another, his “brain” had already made the decision beforehand. So, you will see this intent in action, and this is the part where you might revisit Nietzsche’s comments on “the Self” in “The Despisers of the Body”

  5. LittleBigMan says :

    Raymond Tallis says: “We need to step back from the mathematics to see how we got to where we are now.”

    I agree with this. In fact, mathematics and physics are late to the party, given the fact that the native shamans of the Americas, as it is apparent from don Juan’s revelations, have long had a much more accurate impression of the nature of reality than any academic with a reputation in the field of mathematics or physics. However, an experience I had early in college tells me that physics and mathematics can be used to collect evidence of the underlying nature of reality, as well.

    While still an undergraduate and studying architechtural design (one of those subjects I didn’t stay with for very long), I spent a great deal of time in my bedroom, where paper and foam/wooden models covered the entire floor, portions of my bed, and literally crawled up the walls. The only immune spot was the ceiling. One night, as I was sleeping, I had a remarkable dream. This was years before the original “Stargate” movie came out, but what I saw in my dream is pretty much captured in this clip from the movie — beginning from second :54 to minute 1:12.

    Basically, in my dream, I saw a wormhole and felt myself travelling through it with high speeds exactly as it is shown in the clip. I’m not sure if I was completely awake or not, but at some point immediately after the dream came to an end, I began to “see” a series of mathematical relationships in my mind’s eye — so to speak. During this time, as my physical eyes were still closed, I became aware of myself and crawled off my bed and down onto the carpeted floor and grabbed a piece of paper from underneath my bed where I knew a sea of papers was covering the floor. I wrote down all the mathematical relationships that I could “see” in my head, left the paper on the floor (with my eyes still closed), crawled up back onto my bed again and went back to sleep. When I woke up the next day, I found the paper where I had written the mathematical relationships I had seen after the end of my dream. The whole thing was two lines long and it had notations — including Greek notations — I was not familiar with nor had I seen before — at the time. One of the notations that stuck on my mind was the capital Greek letter: Sigma. At the time, however, I was not familiar with what this mathematical notation meant. After taking a look at the writing, I put it somewhere that I could find it later. I soon forgot about the whole thing (by the way this was years before internet and browsers came out) until years later when I tried to find the piece of paper where I had scribbled stuff. But I never found the piece of paper again. So, although, I would not try to use mathematics to uncover the true nature of reality (it would be like trying to drink water with a screwdriver, it seems to me), but this experience tells me that perhaps the mathematics that can handle reality hasn’t been invented or thought of yet. It is a different kind of mathematics.

    Carlos Castaneda’s remark that: “Such a process could not possibly ever be deciphered because of the vastness of that original source” is, I believe, very true.

    Also from Castaneda’s revelations that:

    “The universe, therefore, was, for them, a universe of supreme intelligence”

    And that:

    “They saw that the mass of intent in the cosmos was responsible for all the possible mutations, all the possible variations which happened in the universe, not because of arbitrary, blind circumstances, but because of the intending done by the vibratory energy, at the level of the flux of energy itself.”

    completely jibe with my own experience of moving through what seemed to be a wormhole, and in all of my OOBE, that as vast and as strange the underlying nature of reality may be, it is not arbitrary and it is the result of impersonal pure intelligence. Also, at times, I gain awareness somewhere between being asleep and being awake. When this happens (the last time it happened was no more than a week ago), I feel my entire body vibrating as I lay on the bed. When this happened to me for the first time many years ago, I thought the vibrations are only in my head. But one time, I was lying on a bed that was on a roller, and I could hear the bed move and vibrate on its wheels, causing the headboard to head the wall next to it, repeatedly. When my body stopped vibrating, so did the bed. Other times, when I became aware of myself in my asleep at the wrong time, I heard a deafening pulsating sound in my ears and I couldn’t move my body at all until the pulsating electrical sound stopped. We are truly strange and mysterious beings.

    “6 second before he had made a conscious decision to press one button or another, his “brian” had already made the decision beforehand.”

    When still taking classes at the university, I was sitting in the classroom along with about half dozen of my classmates waiting for the professor to come and begin the class. While I was waiting and staring at my notebook in front of me, I heard the door behind me open and close. In an instant, a question popped up in my head “What the hell is a surgeon doing here?” The person who had walked in came and sat directly behind me, but I did not turn around to look at him even though I knew it was a ‘he’. Some 7 – 10 minutes later the professor came in and announced to the class that the chief surgeon at an emergency room from a famous city hospital was sitting in our class to see if he might be interested in a career change. At the time, the hospital doctors had been on strike due to skyrocketing costs of malpractice insurance. How I knew it was a surgeon that walked into that classroom, I will never know, but there is indication there that we are far far more than physical beings.

    A few days ago, I was watching some music videos on Youtube when I cam across a Ted Talk that I think is relevant to our discussion here:

    • Scott Preston says :

      An interesting talk by Alex Grey. I’ve seen his paintings, but never knew who did them. There is, you’ll note, some things from Jean Gebser used in his talk, although he doesn’t actually attribute them to Gebser, but to Wilber. Still, much of his art, and his philosophy of art and creativity, he owes, not to Wilber, but to Gebser.

      We “Gebserians” tend to be a bit suspicious of Wilber — or to have a slightly jaundiced view of his “integral” approach. But I found Grey’s talk and demonstrations quite interesting. His paintings are an attempt to portray what Gebser called the “translucency” or “diaphaneity” of the world — to perceive “below”, “behind”, “beyond” the surface (the skin, in these paintings), and he has an interesting fourfold approach which would do credit to Blake’s fourfold vision, particularly represented in his “entheon” structure.

    • Scott Preston says :

      Oh yes… at a about the 13 minute mark, where he introduces the Holy Family and then the Holy Child as an adult, the adult form is Blake’s Albion. I can’t be certain whether he had that specifically in mind or no. It would spoil it for me, though, if he was consciously attempting to reproduce Blake’s Albion in that image. Albion is, in turn, Nietzsche’s “transhuman” ideal.

      • LittleBigMan says :

        “There is, you’ll note, some things from Jean Gebser used in his talk, although he doesn’t actually attribute them to Gebser, but to Wilber. Still, much of his art, and his philosophy of art and creativity, he owes, not to Wilber, but to Gebser.”

        Absolutely. The four types of consciousness that he talked about were a clear reference to what you have been discussing from Gebser’s work. It was exciting to see I knew what he was talking about — my infinite thanks to your work — in the program 🙂

        By the way, I’m now in the middle of the part 2 of “The Holographic Universe” 🙂

  6. LittleBigMan says :

    I’ve just wrapped up watching part 3. I thought that the “channel’s” statement at minute 0:43:00 was my favorite as he said:

    “You can all stop thinking that you’re the one guiding the ship. You’re not. You are just looking at the road. You’re just experiencing the path.”

    To be an observer is a powerful state of being. There’s a technique that one can exercise to achieve this, I think. Here’s what I think.

    First, one must learn to react to emotions the same way one reacts toward a physical object. Suppose you are standing at a corner and playing ball with a friend. Suppose your friend throws a basketball toward you. You react to it by stretching your hands toward the ball as it approaches you. You grab it when it’s within your reach, bounce the ball off the ground a few times, and then throw it back to your friend.

    Now, suppose something happens that causes the rise or creation of an emotion in you, say, ‘anger’. You must train your mind to look inwardly at this emotion as your eyes look out at a ball coming toward you. This is usually not easy to achieve and it takes quite a bit of practice. Then, treat the emotion with as care and curiosity as if you are seeing a basketball for the first time. Imagine the emotion as having mass, size (i.e. a certain level of potency), and shape. Look around the emotion with your mind’s eye until you have thoroughly examined it. This is the second stage toward becoming an observer. The first stage is catching — or becoming cognizant of — the emotion as it forms in you (the same way you are used to reacting physically as a ball is approaching you). The third stage is to practice playing and sending the emotion away the same way you would dribble and toss back or shoot away a basketball.

    Becoming an observer requires that — at least — we can handle all emotions in this way.

    If you could reach a point where you are able to handle emotions in this way as if a NBA player can handle a basketball without even looking at the ball itself, then, I think, you have become an observer. Moreover, every time something happens that creates an emotion in us, it’s the universe giving us another chance to become an observer; methinks.

    I’m not sure if this video clip can be embedded here, but this clip from “The Matrix” is the Hollywood dramatization of the moment Neo is turned to being an observer. I think it makes a good point about the power that is inherent in the moment.

    This is only the start. Emotions come in all levels of intensity. It’s much more difficult to be aware of and handle the weaker ones. Knowing how to be aware of the weakest emotions (e.g. I actually consider “apathy” an emotion) as well as the strongest ones is like going from someone who knows how to administer a Band-Aid from a First-Aid kit to a surgeon who can re-attach a severed finger, for example. Maybe I’m not picking the best examples to make my point, but what I want to say is that handling weak emotions is at least as important as handling the strong ones on the path to becoming an observer.

    In a few minutes, back to the video in part 4 for me 🙂

  7. LittleBigMan says :

    Well, it was really nice to see Jane Roberts and her work on the Seth material receive credit at about minute 0:08:30 of part 4. I also liked the idea of “choice” being hammered on in the presentation of part 4. It seems to me the notion of “choice” is also intimately connected with don Juan’s definition of a “warrior” or “Man of Knowledge” and it is an inevitable next challenge for the individual who has been able to become an observer (one who can manipulate emotions rather than one who is manipulated by emotions).

    Indeed, the excerpt from don Juan’s revelations to Castaneda sheds so much light on the questions that are raised in part 4, including whose holographic universe is this? Mine? Or everyone else I see around me? In particular, I am referring to:

    “Those shamans accounted for the homogeneity of cognition among human beings by the fact that the assemblage point for the entire human race is located at the same place on the energetic luminous spheres that we are: at the height of the shoulder blades, an arm’s length behind them, against the boundary of the luminous ball.”

    From minute 0:36:18 of part 4:

    “No player can ever say or do anything in any other player’s hologram that their own “infinite I” has not required or approved. In other words, no one can ever be a victim of anything that is said or done in any hologram they experience, because their own “infinite I” has either written the script itself, or had 100% script approval.”

    I thought that excerpt was worth quoting here.

    I also appreciate the emphasis the narrator, Stephen Davis, puts on the importance of “feelings,” saying that feelings are a main reason why the “infinite I” sends us here to play and act. Although, I have no doubt that our “feelings” are cropped by the universe in some way as part of a condition for us to live this physical existence, I’m not sure what entity, whether the “infinite I”, or some other entity or force in the universe is making use of our feelings. Feelings seem to be a major impetus for some type of activity in Framework 2. Even Robert Monroe mentioned that the thoughts and intents of others past and present, as well as his own, formed some of the entities and all of the experiences he encountered while roaming around in the universe in his “second body.”

    There really is a great deal of insight nested in these workshops.

    Pretty soon, I shall get to watching part 5 🙂

    • Scott Preston says :

      While we are on the subject of Seth, I recall his warning, issued four or five decades ago, that man’s continued abuse of the biosphere may cause other species to cease to cooperate with man. And if I recall correctly from my reading, he even mentioned the bees specifically.

      That statement has really become poignant in the last couple of years with the problem of “hive collapse” — or, in some cases, the bees simply disappear. It’s become something of a crisis, as we read frequently in the press.

      Seth has often insisted that our perception of reality is totally wrong, and that we have become blinded to the deeper cooperation of all species in the preservation of the Earth’s life and the environment through our false beliefs about a competitive life or death “struggle for survival” or “survival of the fittest”. Ecology has begun to draw out the deeper relationships of cooperation, mutualism, and reciprocity that exists between species in upholding habitat and which ideas run diametrically contrary to the “common sense” and the “conventional wisdom” that exploitation, despoliation, and laissez-faire are considered the norm and as being just the way things are.

      It may be too late for us, now. All the crises that Seth anticipated we could blindly charge into unless we changed our ways, we have charged into nonetheless. We seem not only to have become incapable of learning from our errors, but of even recognising our errors as errors. And that is the problem of the “culture of narcissism”.

  8. LittleBigMan says :

    LOL… I almost missed the gorilla in part 5. Actually, I did miss the gorilla, but as I was counting the passes of the ball from the players who were wearing white T-shirt I caught a glimpse of a something black leaving off the left side of the stage where players were playing and I asked myself “What was that?” 🙂

    Dr. Lipton’s talks were very interesting and engaging. But I have a long way to go before I’m convinced that “perception rewrites genes.” Yes, I do believe that beliefs have a definitive impact on the biology. But I’m not ready to say to what degree this control extends. The way Stephen Davis or Dr. Lipton are portraying this is as if this impact is 100%. I’m not so sure about that. After all, according to Stephen Davis’ own conclusion, it’s the “Infinite I” that has the ability to conceive things — including the biology — not the brain, which is the source of our beliefs. The brain acts only as the perceptive receiver. If we believe that “beliefs control biology” completely, then we cannot say that the “Infinite I” is the sole commander of our fate because the “Infinite I” has no beliefs.

    Then there was the conclusion by Dr. Lipton that beliefs select the genes. How could that be? A child has no beliefs and yet carries a full blown genome that can be investigated. Suppose a woman with brown eyes — believes — that blue eyes are prettier. Would that belief change the genes that determine the color of her eyes so that at some point the woman’s eyes would change color from brown to blue?

    I agree that (1:08:04):

    “If your Infinite I wants you to have an experience, it’s going to have to provide you with everything you need for that experience, including the money.”

    And I believe life is more than these egotistical experiences we have here on earth. Stephen Davis makes it seem as if it’s all about the experiences our “Infinite I” wants us to go through in this physical plane. But I have arrived at the conclusion that it is about the types of feelings and emotions our existence here on earth is meant to send to the Heavens or the depth of the universe. Just like the photon particles that are produced inside the center of the sun and rise from its plasma depths over a period of tens of thousands of years only to reach the plants and other organic life here on earth over 100,000 years later, we human beings are a type of “sun species” that, instead of photons, generate emotions and feelings and thoughts that are sent out into the depths of the universe, and the universe uses these for some purpose that is incomprehensible to our species.

    Stephen Davis makes a compelling argument that our environment out there isn’t an objective reality that exists independent of us. True. But by the same token, our “Infinite I” is part of another environment called Framework 2, and what it ‘conceives’ cannot be independent of that greater environment. That is to say there is a symbiosis between the conceptions of the “Infinite I” and the demands/desires/rules of the infinite universe beyond. Our “infinite I” volunteers to project into the universe a particular set of emotions/feelings and thoughts through its creation (the ego) on this physical plane. In return, those same feelings and thoughts become an indelible part of “Infinite I” as well, making it more powerful to act and create in the infinite universe.

    Seth called himself “a teacher.” This implies that the universe is quite organized with each “energy personality essence” playing some designated roles within Framework 2, which means all these “infinite I”s cannot create “the human game” without a higher purpose that is at work.

    I cannot believe, however, that the 500 Euro bill changed to 100 Euro spontaneously. Nor can I believe that the $250.00 was deposited into Stephen Davis’ account out of thin air. I have no idea what he was getting at there.

    It was a great series of workshops to watch. Thank you for presenting and discussing them.

    • LittleBigMan says :

      Up there, I gave a quote from part 5 @ (1:08:04):

      “If your Infinite I wants you to have an experience, it’s going to have to provide you with everything you need for that experience, including the money.”

      Last night, as I was reading Seth’s “The Individual and the Nature of Mass Events”, I came across a piece that says exactly the same thing. Here it is:

      “In all forms of life each individual is born into a world already provided for it, with circumstances favorable to its growth and development; a world in which its own existence rests upon the equally valid existence of all other individuals and species, so that each contributes to nature’s whole.

      “In that environment there is a cooperative sociability of a biological nature, that is understood by the animals in their way, and taken for granted by the young of your own species. The means are given so that the needs of the individual can be met. The granting of those needs furthers the development of the individual, its species, and by inference all others in the fabric of nature.” (p. 43 – 44).

    • Scott Preston says :

      I’m not too keen on Davis’ terms, “Infinite I” will inevitably be recast conceptually as something like “transcendental ego”, which it ain’t. In don Juan’s terminology, this relationship between the infinite and the finite, or eternal and temporal, corresponds to the terms “nagual” and “tonal”; in Jane Roberts’, the “mortal self in time” is the finite “I”, or as Seth puts the relationship between the infinite and the finite, “the You of you”. It’s this “You of you” that makes possible a goal like Nietzsche’s “Become what you are!”. Blake’s “The Selfhood” — and a hindrance to true self realisation — is this “finite I” or “mortal self in time” correspondingly. I’ve just been calling it “the self-image” — the reflection in the pool that entrapped the attention and consciousness of Narcissus. To “die to oneself”, as the New Testament puts it, is a necessary step to awakening to this other aspect of “the You of you”. This is the step don Juan speaks of when he talks of man’s struggle with infinity being, essentially, an acquiescence. Rumi’s poetry is, of course, full of this.

      Years ago, in the old Dark Age Blog, I recounted my own experience of this “You of you” in a post called “the Dream of the Fish”. That blog is gone, now, and I don’t know if you ever were around then anyway. But “Infinite I” doesn’t quite get the gist of it. But, for that matter, no word or combination of words could. I once read a poem that had the lines “Darkness is his pavilion”, and that stuck with me. There is something of this, too, in A.H. Almaas’ “Luminous Night’s Journey”, which is a book that resonates very deeply with me.

  9. LittleBigMan says :

    Stephen Davis talks a great deal about “The Field”, “Infinite I”, and “The human game”. So, I think it maybe useful to quote some excerpts from Robert Monroe’s “Journeys Out of The Body” that discuss environments he was able to enter in his “Second Body” while having an Out Of Body Experience (OOBE). Basically, he identified three different environments where he visited. He called them “Locale I”, Locale II”, and “Locale III.” Here he is in his own words as he describes each environment.

    “Locale I is the most believable. It consists of people and places that actually do exist in the material, well-known world at the very moment of the experiment. It is the world represented to us by our physical senses which most of us are fairly sure does exist. Visits to Locale I while in the Second Body should not contain strange beings, events, or places. Unfamiliar, perhaps, but not strange and unknown. If the latter is the case, then perception is distorted.” (p. 60).

    *****************

    “The best introduction to Locale II is to suggest a room with a sign over the door saying, “Please Check All Physical Concepts Here.” If getting accustomed to the idea of a Second Body was an uneasy experience, Locale II may be hard to take. It is certain to produce emotional effects as it steps solidly upon what we have accepted as reality. Furthermore, many of our religious doctrines and the interpretations thereof become open to question.

    “It is enough to say that only a small part of the visits into Locale II via the Second Body has provided evidential data, for these visits do not easily lend themselves to proof. Therefore, much of the Locale II material is cautious extrapolation. However, several hundred experiments in this particular area have provided definite consistencies. If A plus B equals C sixty-three times, there is a high order or probability that A plus B will equal C the sixty-fourth time.

    “Postulate: Locale II is a non-material environment with laws of motion and matter only remotely related to the physical world. It is an immensity whose bounds are unknown (to this experimenter), and has depth and dimension incomprehensible to the finite, conscious mind. In this vastness lie all of the aspects we attribute to heaven and hell (see Chapter VIII), which are but part of Locale II. It is inhabited, if that is the word, by entities with various degrees of intelligence with whom communication is possible.

    “As noted in the percentile analysis in a later chapter, the fundamentals are altered in Locale II. Time, by the standards of the physical world, is non-existent. There is a sequence of events, a past and a future, but no cyclical separation. Both continue to exist coterminously with “now.” Measurements, from microseconds to millennia, are useless. Other measurements may represent these factors in abstract calculation, but this is uncertain. Laws of conservation of energy, force field theories, wave mechanics, gravity, matter structure — all remain to be proved by those more versed in such fields.

    “Superseding all appears to be one prime law. Locale II is a state of being where that which we label thought is the wellspring of existence. It is the vital creative force that produces energy, assembles “matter” into form, and provides channels of perception and communication. I suspect that the very self or soul in Locale II is no more than an organized vortex or warp in this fundamental. As you think, so you are.

    “In this environment, no mechanical supplements are found. No cars, boats, airplanes, radio, television, and other communication aids have value. Communication is instantaneous. No farms, gardens, cattle ranches, processing plants, or retail outlets are in evidence. In all experimental visits, no food energy needs were indicated. How energy is replaced — if it is truly spent — is not known.

    “Mere” thought is the force that supplies any need or desire, and what you think is the matrix of your action, situation, and position in this greater reality. This is essentially the message that religion and philosophy have been attempting to convey throughout the ages, although perhaps less bluntly and often distorted. A facet learned in this medium of thought explains much. It is: Like attracts Like. I didn’t realize there was such a rule that acted so specifically. It had been to me nothing more or less than an abstraction. Project this outward, and you begin to appreciate the infinite variations found in Locale II. Your destination seems to be grounded completely within the framework of your inner most constant motivations, emotions, and desires. You may not consciously want to “go” there, but you have no choice. Your Supermind (soul?) [note that this “Supermind” is what Stephen Davis calls “Infinite I”] is stronger and usually makes the decision for you. Like attracts Like.

    “The interesting aspect of this thought world (or worlds) of Locale II is that one does perceive what seems to be solid matter as well as artifacts common to the physical world. These are brought into “existence,” evidently, by three sources. First, they are the product of thought of those who once lived in the physical world, the patterns of which still remain. This is accomplished quite automatically, without deliberate intent. The second source is those who liked certain material things in the physical world, which they have re-created apparently to enhance their surroundings in Locale II. The third source I assume to be that of a higher order of intelligent beings more aware of the Locale II environment than most inhabitants. Their purpose seems to be that of simulation of the physical environment — temporarily, at least — for the benefit of those just emerging from the physical world, after “death.” This is done to reduce trauma and shock for the “newcomers” by introducing familiar shapes and settings in the early conversion stages.

    “By this time, one can begin to understand the relationship of the Second Body to Locale II. Locale II is the natural environment of the Second Body. The principles involved in its action, composition, perception, and control all correspond to those in Locale II. This, then, is why the majority of the environmental travel attempts took me involuntarily somewhere into Locale II. The Second Body is basically not of this world.” (p. 73 – 75)

    “Thus travel to points in the physical world is a “forced” process in the Second Body state. Given the opportunity of the slightest mental relaxation, the Supermind will guide you in your Second Body into Locale II. It is the “natural” thing to do.

    “Our traditional concept of place suffers badly when applied to Locale II. It seems to interpenetrate our physical world, yet spans limitless reaches beyond comprehension. Many theories have been offered in literature throughout the ages as to the “where” of it, but few appeal to the modern scientific mind.

    “All of the experimental visits to this area have helped little to formulate a more acceptable theory. The most acceptable is the wave-vibration concept, which presumes the existence of an infinity of worlds all operating at different frequencies, one of which is this physical world. Just as various wave frequencies in the electromagnetic spectrum can simultaneously occupy space, with a minimum of interaction, so might the world or worlds of Locale II be interspersed in our physical-matter world. Except for rare or unusual conditions, our “natural” senses and our instruments which are extensions thereof are completely unable to perceive and report this potential. If we consider this premise, the “where” is answered neatly. “Where” is “here.” (p. 76)

    “In Locale II, reality is composed of deepest desires and most frantic fears. Thought is action, and no hiding layers of conditioning or inhibition shield the inner you from others, where honesty is the best policy because there can be nothing less.

    “Under the basic standards described above, existence is indeed different. It is this difference that creates the great problems of adjustment even when attempting to visit there while in the Second Body. The raw emotion so carefully repressed in our physical civilization is unleashed in full force. To say that it is overwhelming at first is a massive understatement. In conscious physical life, this condition would be considered psychotic.” (p. 77)

    “An infant learns to be “civilized” in its growth through childhood to adulthood status. I suspect the same thing occurs all over again in the adaptation to Locale II. If it doesn’t happen during physical life, it becomes the first order of business upon death.

    “This implies that the areas of Locale II “nearest” the physical world (in vibratory frequency ?) are peopled for the most part with insane or near-insane emotionally driven beings. For the most part, this seems to be true. They include those alive but asleep or drugged and out in their Second Bodies, and quite probably those who are “dead” but still emotionally driven. There is evidence to support the former, and the latter seems probable.

    “This near area, quite understandably, is not a pleasant place to be. It is a level or plane where you “belong” until you learn better. I don’t know what happens to those who don’t learn. Perhaps they stay there forever. The moment you disassociate from the physical via the Second Body, you are on the fringes of this close-by section of Locale II. It is here that one meets all sorts of disjointed personalities and animate beings. If there is some protective mechanism for the neophyte, it was not apparent to me. Only by cautious and sometimes terrifying experimentation was I able to learn the art or trick of passing through the area.” (p. 78)

    “Only when you have passed the “raw emotion” stage do you move into the innumerable various but evidently organized activity clusters of Locale II. It is impossible to convey to another the “reality” of this non-physical eternity. As stated by many in centuries past, it must be experienced.” (p. 80).

    **********************************

    “Paradoxically, the scientist today can conceive far more easily of the possibility of the area here labeled Locale III than that of Locale II. Why? Because it fits his latest discoveries in physics, small bits of evidence he has uncovered in his experiments with matter bombardment, accelerators, cyclotrons, etc.

    “The best way to get acquainted with Locale III is to take the significant experiments leading up to it directly from the notes.” (p. 86)

    “Locale III, in summary, proved to be a physical-matter world almost identical to our own. The natural environment is the same. There are trees, houses, cities, people, artifacts, and all the appertunances of a reasonably civilized society. There are homes, families, businesses, and people work for a living. There are roads on which vehicles travel. There are railroads and trains.

    “Now for the “almost.” At first, the thought was that Locale III was no more than some part of our world unknown to me and those others concerned. It had all the appearances of being so. However, more careful study showed that it can be neither the present nor the past of our physical-matter world.

    “The scientific development is inconsistent. There are no electrical devices whatsoever. Electricity, electromagnetics, and anything so related are non-existent. No electric lights, telephones, radios, television, or electric power.

    “No internal combustion, gasoline, or oil were found as power sources. Yet mechanical power is used. Careful examination of one of the locomotives that pulled a string of old-fashioned-looking passenger cars showed it to be driven by a steam engine. The cars appeared to be made of wood, the locomotive of metal, but of a different shape than our now obsolete types. The track gauge was much smaller than our standard track spacing, smaller than our narrow-gauge mountain railways.

    “I observed the servicing of one of the locomotives in detail. Neither wood nor coal was used as a thermal source to produce steam. Instead, large vatlike containers were carefully slid from under the boiler, detached, and rolled by small cart into a building with massive thick walls. The containers had pipelike protuberances extending from the top. Men working behind shields performed the removal, casually cautious, and di not relax their automatic vigilance until the containers were safely in the building and the door closed. The contents were “hot,” either through heat or radiation. The actions of the technicians all seemed to indicate the latter.” (p. 94 – 95)

  10. LittleBigMan says :

    Notice in the quotes above where Robert Monroe is talking about Locale II. At one point he says:

    “The third source I assume to be that of a higher order of intelligent beings more aware of the Locale II environment than most inhabitants. Their purpose seems to be that of simulation of the physical environment — temporarily, at least — for the benefit of those just emerging from the physical world, after “death.” This is done to reduce trauma and shock for the “newcomers” by introducing familiar shapes and settings in the early conversion stages.”

    Now let’s compare that with an excerpt from my abridged PDF copy of “Seth Speaks” via Jane Roberts as the medium:

    “At one time – in your terms – I myself acted as such a guide; as in a sleep state Ruburt now follows the same road. The situation is rather tricky from the guide’s viewpoint, for psychologically utmost discretion must be used. One man’s Moses, as I discovered, may not be another man’s Moses. I have served as a rather creditable Moses on several occasions – and once, though this is hard to believe, to an Arab.

    The Arab was a very interesting character, by the way, and to illustrate some of the difficulties involved, I will tell you about him. He hated the Jews, but somehow he was obsessed with the idea that Moses was more powerful than Allah, and for years this was the secret sin upon his conscience. He spent some time in Constantinople at the time of the Crusades. He was captured, and ended up with a group of Turks, all to be executed by the Christians, in this case very horribly so. They forced his mouth open and stuffed it with burning coals, as a starter. He cried to Allah, and then in greater desperation to Moses, and as his consciousness left his body, Moses was there.

    He believed in Moses more than he did Allah, and I did not know until the last moment which form I was to assume. He was a very likable chap, and under the circumstances I did not mind when he seemed to expect a battle for his soul. Moses and Allah were to fight for him. He could not rid himself of the idea of force, though he had died by force, and nothing could persuade him to accept any kind of peace or contentment, or any rest, until some kind of battle was wrought.

    A friend and I, with some others, staged the ceremony, and from apposite clouds in the sky Allah and I shouted out our claims upon his soul – while he, poor man, cowered on the ground between us. Now while I tell this story humorously, you must understand that the man’s belief brought it about, and so to set him free, we worked it through.

    I called upon Jehovah, but to no avail, because our Arab did not know of Jehovah – only of Moses – and it was in Moses he put his faith. Allah drew a cosmic sword and I set it afire so that he dropped it. It fell o the ground and set the land aflame. Our Arab cried out again. He Saw leagues of followers behind Allah, and so leagues of followers appeared behind me. Our friend was convinced that one of the three of us must be destroyed, and he feared mightily that he would be the victim.

    Finally the opposing clouds in which we appeared came closer. In , my hand I held a tablet that said: “Thou shalt not kill.” Allah held a sword. As we came closer we exchanged these items, and our followers merged. We came together, forming the image of a s-u-n, and we said: “We are one.”

    The two diametrically opposed ideas had to merge or the man would have had no peace, and only when these opposites were united could we begin to explain his situation.
    To be such a guide requires great discipline and training.

    Before the event just mentioned, for example, I had spent many lifetimes acting as a guide under the tutorship of another in my daily sleep states.

    It is possible for example to lose yourself momentarily in the hallucinations that are being formed, and in such cases another teacher must bail you out. Delicate probing of the psychological processes is necessary, and the variety of hallucinations in which you may become involved is endless. You may, for example, take the form of an individual’s dearly beloved dead pet.

    All of these hallucinatory activities take place usually some short time immediately following death.” (p. 70 – 71 of the abridged version of Seth Speaks in the PDF form).

    It is clear from above that Robert Monroe and Seth are corroborating each other.

    • Scott Preston says :

      Some time ago, I saw an old photo of a contraption — a conveyance, a vehicle much like a bus — used to tour the public around Universal Studios. I’ve looked again for a photo of that vehicle in vain, again. But it was exactly like what Munroe described in one of his OOB states. And it made me wonder if he wasn’t, in fact, time travelling.

      The vehicle he described from his OOBE was an open-air, slow-moving contraption with staged seating, like a movie theatre, so that each passenger could see over the head of the passengers in front of him. It could seat many people in one row.

      That was exactly the picture I saw of the old studio tour bus. Wish I could find it again.

      • LittleBigMan says :

        “Years ago, in the old Dark Age Blog, I recounted my own experience of this “You of you” in a post called “the Dream of the Fish”. That blog is gone, now, and I don’t know if you ever were around then anyway.”

        I certainly don’t remember that post. The first essay I read on The Dark Age Blog — which completely gripped my thoughts — was the one you wrote on “Transmodernism.” 🙂

        Thank you for that citation from A. H. Almaas. I have added to my list of books to read. 🙂

        “But “Infinite I” doesn’t quite get the gist of it. But, for that matter, no word or combination of words could.”

        I agree entirely. Our infinite portion seems to be our “thought-full” portion.

        The following statement by Robert Monroe is quite interesting:

        “Locale II is a state of being where that which we label thought is the wellspring of existence. It is the vital creative force that produces energy, assembles “matter” into form, and provides channels of perception and communication.”

        Because it declares ‘thought’ or ‘intelligence’ as the source of energy and putting matter into form. This must be the same thing as Seth’s “intent”:

        “They saw that the mass of intent in the cosmos was responsible for all the possible mutations, all the possible variations which happened in the universe, not because of arbitrary, blind circumstances, but because of the intending done by the vibratory energy, at the level of the flux of energy itself.”

        • LittleBigMan says :

          Sorry…..of course, that last quote is from don Juan via Carlos Castaneda; not Seth.

        • Scott Preston says :

          Thank you for that citation from A. H. Almaas. I have added to my list of books to read.

          I recommend putting it to the very top of your list.

          Locale II would be akin, I think, to Gebser’s “ever-present origin”.

          Let me recount my post of “The Dream of the Fish” from TDAB earlier, for it accounts for much of what I do here. One morning I awoke from a startling dream. I dreamt I was a fish. I had a fish’s awareness and consciousness. I took a fisherman’s hook, and I remember the feeling of the barb and the sensation of struggling against the pull upwards. As I broke the surface of the water, I perceived the fisherman. But at the same time, the fisherman was also me. I was both fisherman and fish simultaneously. My “identity” was in both.

          That experience of being simultaneously in two different and “opposite” forms was so startling that I woke up, rolled out of bed and sat there trying to fathom how that was possible at all. And while I was musing on that, I realised that my everyday “self”, who had been the observer in the dream and was now sitting on the bed trying to figure this out was yet a third “incarnation” of the his identity. So, I was actually in three “identities” at once — as fish, fisherman, and dreamer. And then I was hammered by yet a fourth realisation — that the architect of the dream wasn’t “me”. The architect of the dream scenario was yet another location of my overall “identity” — an awareness so vast it was incomprehensible to me except as infinite darkness and depth, but which was not separate from the perplexed “me” — the ego-nature — that was trying to figure out how “my” consciousness could be in so many forms at once. “It” created the dream; “it” acted itself out in the dream; and “it” was also the one who observed the dream and was now puzzling over the dream. Even as “I” sat on the bed being overwhelmed by all this, I watched as the boundaries of “things” like furniture, “me”, fish and fisherman dissolved. Nothing had existence of its own — no “self-nature” as Buddhism puts it. Everything was empty of self-nature.

          I had to put it aside, of course, to deal with the requirements of everyday life. A few days later, though, I had the unusual experience in which all “boundaries” or outlines dissolved. No distinction between foreground objects and background. Just as fish and fisherman and dreamer and dream architect had no boundary between them, neither did sky and earth or things of sky and earth. It was a very brief moment of the sensation of “limitlessness” or infinity, but it was enough. After that, I knew what Castaneda and Blake, amongst others, had experienced themselves, except on a more sustained basis.

  11. LittleBigMan says :

    Thank you for sharing your remarkable dream. It seems to me this was a transcendent vision; a revelation to “you” by “Your” own consciousness.

    Sleeping has always been very special to me not because of its obvious physical benefits, but because of the way it connects us to ‘the unknown.’ As you know, don Juan mentioned to Carlos Castaneda that “the assemblage point” moves from its fixed position during sleep. And the movement of the assemblage point is associated with different levels of perception. Now, if when you woke up, the assemblage point of your being had not fully reached its fixed position — for whatever reason — then that could explain the momentarily persistent change in your perception even as you were awake.

    When I was about 5 years old, one night I woke up to a commotion in my bedroom. A violent wind was blowing through the only window in my bedroom, which was located unusually high above the floor. I’m guessing the window must’ve been somewhere between 5 – 6 feet above the floor level.

    The first thing I noticed after waking up was the violent wind that made a loud noise as it blew into my bedroom. The second thing I noticed was that the hallway outside of my bedroom was completely dark, which meant that my parents and my brother were all asleep. Then, I tried to look in the direction of the high window through which the wind was blowing. The wind was blowing so hard that it made it quite difficult for me to look in the direction of the window. It was as if sticking my neck out of the window of a car that was moving at 70 miles an hour while trying to look in the direction where the vehicle was headed. When my eyes finally lined up with the direction of the window, I saw a small fellow — no taller than two feet — sitting on the niche that was in front of the window. His entire figure was dimly illuminated and I could discern his dark striped robe, his kind face, and even kinder smile that he was staring at me with. I think because of his extremely small size and kind demeanor, at no time during this I became fearful of him. I still remember the thought that went through my head as I was squinting and looking into the wind at the little man who sat on the niche of my bedroom’s window. Surprisingly, I wasn’t thinking ‘How come he is so small?’ Or, ‘Who is that?’ But, I was thinking ‘What does he want?”

    As this thought or question went through my head, a strange and overwhelming feeling of sleepiness overcame me, and I still clearly remember my eyes closing slowly as they were still riveted to this small figure sitting up there. In the morning, I woke up to the loud yelling and shouting of my mother. She used to open that window (which opened and closed like double doors) every morning when she woke up and always made sure it was locked when she put me to bed every night. That morning, when she came to open the window, she noticed that both panes of the window were thrown wide open.

    — Wake up! Wake up! Get up, I tell you! Why did you open the window? Get up!

    That is the only time I have ever heard my mother yell and scream at me. I remember looking at my mother bewildered and asking myself “Doesn’t she see I can’t even reach the window that high? How could I have opened it? I bet if I tell her about the little man who was sitting up there last night, she won’t believe me.”

    — The storm last night…..it blew the window open.

    I told my mother that, knowing my mother was aware that that was an impossible scenario ( considering how the window latch worked) without smashing the window latch first. But the latch was not broken or damaged in any way as my mother continued to make sure it was locked every night when she put me to bed.

    — What storm?

    She answered back. After that, I knew I could not explain what had happened the night before. So, I said no more.

    Regarding the A. H. Almaas’ book: “I recommend putting it to the very top of your list.”

    As a matter of fact I did exactly that upon your first recommendation; not to mention that I absolutely love autobiographies. But your emphasis that I should get to it sooner than later meant that I had to order it and read it as soon as possible 🙂

    So, now, Amazon is in the process of shipping it to me together with Seth’s “Unknown Reality” volumes 1 and 2. 🙂

  12. amothman33 says :

    I was not too much surprised to see Seth and Jane join the hollywood circus in debasing the arab,what is strange is the perversion in the simulation ,the arab hate the jew not the jew hate the arab and allah and moses and the rest of the simulation. it seem some write in a trance mode,oblivious of the message communicated.Putting that aside let me go to the issue at hand.Nikola Tesla said in the universe there is a core from which we obtain knowledge,strenght and inspiration,i have not penetrated in the secerts of this core but i know that it exists.This is the islamic viewpoit.we live in an ocean of potetiality where all possiblities are availalable. There is a system of downloading the divine knowledge, the quran is clear on this ,it says -alef lam meem ra- is the tools of the the universal script through which the divine knowledge is send down to the human, but alas most people believe not.Meditation ,concentration and comteplation is the way.The vibrition of the above mentioned alephabetical code activate the wave frequency to move from the field to the human brain which has the capacity to translate the message in sensery data.It is time to move from the digital to the alephabetical , no wonder Makenna said the universe is made of language despite his mathematical orientation.No wonder Raymond Tallis said science is in a mess and need help, not only the mathematical gaze freeze change but also of its inability to answer basic questions revealing its conceptual confusion.I feel Bashar has a good contribution through his trio, conceive, receive and perceive. please Scott donot be harsh on the narrator. May God give us light to see rightly.

    • srosesmith says :

      Magnificent dream, Scott!
      And your (some kind of initiatory!) childhood experience, LittleBigMan!
      I think of Seth’s wonderful statement that our dreams continue to exist, like lights over the dark landscape of the psyche (dark to our conscious minds).
      They light up and reveal to others who hear and can receive them. Thank you!

      • Scott Preston says :

        The dream of the fish (as I call it) recalls the Taoist Chuang Tzu’s oft-quoted remark how, upon awakening from a dream, he didn’t know whether he was a man dreaming he was a butterfly or a butterfly dreaming he was a man. But in effect, it demonstrates the multidimensionality and complete fluidity of consciousness, that it is, indeed, capable of playing many roles, and expressing many identities, at once. There is, as Seth put it, more than one “self”.

        The second experience which followed shortly thereafter, when I felt-saw the boundaries between earth and sky, and the things of earth and sky, dissolve into infinity was incomplete. For a moment, I perceived what Blake perceived — the infinite in all things or, as Buddha put it, everything is empty, nothing has self-nature. However, it was so fleeting and somewhat incomplete because my own boundaries persisted. I remained firmly in “The Selfhood”. I was merely a mind observing, and the boundaries of myself remained stubbornly intact. Had I, too, lost my outline, my boundaries, and merged with that infinity, I would have lost the human form, as I did in the dream of the fish. It would have been the same as “death”, of course which is perhaps why my stubborn self refused to let go.

        In retrospect, it was as if the dream had been a lesson to prepare for that next step. But the experience was so fleeting that I was taken by surprise and failed then, as don Juan might put it, to “grab my cubic centimetre of chance”, unfold “the wings of perception” and soar beyond “mold of man”. These issues are intelligible to me, now. I retain an unshakeable conviction that Blake and Rumi are not mad; that Castaneda is not hoaxing; and that Seth is as real as reality gets. No one will persuade me otherwise.

  13. LittleBigMan says :

    Hi amothman33. You wrote:

    “I was not too much surprised to see Seth and Jane join the hollywood circus in debasing the arab,what is strange is the perversion in the simulation ,the arab hate the jew not the jew hate the arab and allah and moses and the rest of the simulation.”

    Because it was me who posted that excerpt from Seth’s work, please let me respond. First and foremost, I assure you that my post was meant only to highlight the astounding connection between the writings of Seth and Robert Monroe in terms of the scope of activities that take place beyond the physical reality. Second, Seth’s statements, if anything, highlight what terrible thing Christians did to an Arab Muslim during the Crusades. Not only that, the story highlights the fact that although that one individual Arab may have hated Jews on the surface, but underneath, he was more fearful of Moses and attributed more power to him than Allah. In my view, the Arab discussed in Seth’s work was a victim of the terrible time and place in which he lived. Nevertheless, Seth consistently highlights in his work that we design and write the script for our lives down to its most minute events and circumstances. So, speaking truthfully, there are no victims; something that was also brought up in Stephen Davis’ “The Holographic Universe.”

    But most importantly, let me tell you a story that a colleague of mine once told me which should forever, I hope, change your ideas about who we really are regardless of who we think we are.

    This colleague of mine who was of Irish – Italian descent in her immediate ancestral background told me that for sometime she had been researching and even travelling to places in order to find out more about her ancestral roots. Going back nearly 7 generations, she had discovered that one of her ancestors had been a slave African woman working on some island that was a Portuguese colony at the time. Now, this revelation was quite incredible to me, because looking at her, she looked completely Irish and even Scandinavian, given her completely fair skin, blue eyes, and blonde hair. So, obviously, you and I and everyone on this planet didn’t just pop into existence a century or two ago, and when you go back far enough you’d be surprised what you might find out. For myself, I told her that just from the word of mouth from my parents and grandparents, I had been able to trace my own roots back 150 years (is that 5 generations?) and I hadn’t found anything surprising or out of the ordinary, but that I wasn’t interested in digging any further back than that for fear of finding out that perhaps some time in the past my ancestors could have been petty thieves or criminals of sorts 🙂

    By the way, I don’t know how familiar you are with the Seth material, amothman33, but Seth, when describing his own re-incarnational existences, did mention that in one of his lives he used to be a very poor Palestinian woman who struggled so much to feed herself and her 12 children, while in another life she had been a woman who never married and never had any children, and yet in another life he was a Roman businessman in ancient times who dealt with Jewish businessmen. Here’s an excerpt from my abridged version of Seth Speaks, where Seth talks about his life in ancient Rome while selling to and buying merchandise from Jews:

    “The Romans had no clear idea of the number of Jews in Rome at that time. They went by guesswork. The bells on donkeys belonging to the Zealots had upon them the
    symbol of an eye. They came secretly into town, hiding as much from other Jews as from Romans. They were good bargainers and often did me out of more than I deserved to lose.” (p. 178 – 179 of my abridged PDF file of Seth Speaks).

    Hi Sharon. You wrote: “And your (some kind of initiatory!) childhood experience, LittleBigMan!”

    How on earth did you know?? I didn’t want to get into it because my posts are lengthy as they are and besides the messages that the man in that vision has delivered me in his subsequent visits have been quite abstract and need quite a bit of deciphering since their meaning unravels itself over very long periods of time.

    But you are absolutely correct. In fact, later, I would find out that that first visit by the little man was meant as an “initiatory” so that he could introduce himself. Since then, every16 years I have been getting visits from that little man, who, interestingly, in his subsequent visits appears as a giant, while bringing me visions about what is going to happen to me. His giant size always has a meaning representing either a very significant threat that he then shows me a way of overcoming it or a strong protective support that would be there to buttress a fall that I was to experience. I confess that it was these visions that have prompted me to choosing the moniker LittleBigMan for my posts 🙂

    The fact also is that I didn’t expect any of those subsequent visits in reality (like the first time) or in a dream. Now, that he has visited me in my dreams every 16 years since I was 5, and I have developed this expectation that he will appear again in a dream 16 years after the last time, I wonder if he will ever show up again 🙂

    From Scott:

    “These issues are intelligible to me, now. I retain an unshakeable conviction that Blake and Rumi are not mad; that Castaneda is not hoaxing; and that Seth is as real as reality gets. No one will persuade me otherwise.”

    I concur completely, Scott. Extraordinary visions and experiences really do make one able to understand and relate to those works that you mention and discuss here so often. A former colleague of mine, who was also a very good friend, had never had any dreams according to his own admission, and had never experienced any sorts of extraordinary visions while conscious either. As a result, he was completely in disbelief about even the existence of afterlife and that human consciousness could survive physical death.

    • Scott Preston says :

      Well, this represents an opportunity to bring a few fragments of the jigsaw into relationship.

      Almaas’ book “Luminous Night’s Journey” is an allusion, also, to Mohammed’s Night Journey on the donkey Baraq (or Barak) — (and is it odd coincidence that “Barak” Obama should belong to a party that has the Donkey as its symbol or mascot?). As legend has it, Mohammed rode on Baraq to Jerusalem, where he then ascended through many heavens meeting different saints of the Bible — Moses, Jesus, Adam, God — much like Dante’s journeys. After ascending through the various heavens, he came to the throne of God, and God instructed Mohammed to tell the Muslims to pray 100 times a day. Mohammed, taking this commandment back, was intercepted by Moses who asked what God had commanded the Muslims to do. Thinking that 100 times a day was too much praying, he sent Mohammed back to God asking for a reduction in the number of prayers. Mohammed duly obeyed Moses instruction and God, apparently thinking Moses was reasonable and just, reduced the number of prayers by 10 each time. Moses kept sending Mohammed back to God to negotiate the number of prayers Muslims must preform until 5 prayers a day was settled upon.

      It’s very likely. that the poor Arab of Seth’s story was familiar with the story of Mohammed’s Night Journey, and may have come to the conclusion that Moses could overrule God’s commandments. It would not be surprising, then, that he might endow Moses with extraordinary gifts and power — the ability to change God’s mind.

      amothman might correct the details of the story of the Night Journey, but I think it’s understandable why that Arab man might have appealed to Moses first, rather than Allah. He was faithfully following Mohammed’s own example.

      • LittleBigMan says :

        Very illuminating. Thank you, Scott. I’m looking forward to my copy of Almaas’ book.

      • srosesmith says :

        The simultaneity of time — as in Seth and Gebser, and also, with a different emphasis, in Eckhart Tolle — is one of the guiding lights in my understanding of things. At the front of my current journal is this, from Dogen:
        “Each moment is all being, is the entire world. Reflect now whether any being or any world is left out of the present moment.”

        • tony says :

          which reminds me of my own favourite from Chuang Tzu:
          “Heaven, earth and I were born at the same time. And all Life and I are one”.

        • Scott Preston says :

          “Each moment is all being, is the entire world. Reflect now whether any being or any world is left out of the present moment.”

          Brought to mind a snippet of poetry from Rumi’s “Green Ears”,
          http://devotionlovers.blogspot.ca/2010/05/green-ears-there-was-long-drought.html

          “To your minds there is such a thing as news,
          whereas to the inner knowing, it’s all
          in the middle of its happening”.

          “Green Ears” is such a contemporary sounding poem. There is even a verse that reminds me of Gebser’s “deficient rationality” and the problem of disintegration,

          “Your intellect is in fragments, like bits of gold
          scattered over many matters. You must scrape them
          together, so the royal stamp can be pressed into you.

          Cohere, and you’ll be as lovely as Samarcand
          with its central market, or Damascus. Grain by grain,
          collect the parts. You’ll be more magnificent
          than a flat coin. You’ll be a cup
          with carvings of the king
          around the outside.

          The Friend will become bread and springwater for you,
          a lamp and a helper, your favorite dessert
          and a glass of wine.
          Union with that one
          is grace. Gather the pieces,
          so I can show you what is.”

        • Scott Preston says :

          “Your intellect is in fragments, like bits of gold
          scattered over many matters.

          Doesn’t this quote from Rumi’s Green Ears remind of John Donne’s lines from “Anatomy of the World”? — ’tis all in pieces, all coherence gone”

          “When in the planets and the firmament
          They seek so many new; they see that this
          Is crumbled out again to his atomies.
          ‘Tis all in pieces, all coherence gone,
          All just supply, and all relation; ”

          So, you might inquire of Gebser, “when has there not been such fragmentation and disintegration of the intellect” that he calls “deficient rationality”?

          The main difference between then and now is that, for Gebser it seems, it is the correlation of this “deficient rationality” with “technological feasibility” — as he states in the preface to his “Ever-Present Origin”

          “The crisis we are experiencing today is not just a European crisis, not a crisis of morals, economics, ideologies, politics or religion. It is not only prevalent in Europe and America but in Russia and the Far East as well. It is a crisis of the world and mankind such as has occurred previously only during pivotal junctures – junctures of decisive finality for life on earth and for the humanity subjected to them. The crisis of our times and our world is in process – at the moment autonomously – of complete transformation, and appears headed toward an event which, in our view, can only be described as a ‘global catastrophe’. This event, understood in any but anthropocentric terms, will necessarily come about as a new constellation of planetary extent.

          We must soberly face the fact that only a few decades separate us from that event. This span of time is determined by an increase in technological feasibility inversely proportional to man’s sense of responsibility — that is, unless a new factor were to emerge which would effectively overcome this menacing correlation.”

          So, although we do find complaints amongst the wise at all times — Rumi, Donne, Blake, Nietzsche, etc — about man’s fractured and disintegrate consciousness or “deficient rationality”, and that this is perhaps nothing new, for Gebser it is the correlation of this deficiency with the destructive possibilities of technology (power) that makes the deficiency of our time so menacing. So, Gebser’s observations on this menacing correlation might be “it’s time for man to swim or sink”

  14. amothman33 says :

    Thank you LBM for the clarification, but I do not believe in reincarnation, the idea of multiple lifes, this destroy the personal responsiblity of the present life.It makes human lazy since there is another chance.It is a tool of corruption.
    On Scott quotation. Not every thing we hear is correct.The history of falsification is well known. The story of allah and moses is of that type.On the travel, we are already familiar wuth the travel of images and sound and the attempts to atomise things in one place and recollect in another, a thing IBn Arba talked about in the context of the story of moving the thrown of the queen from Yemen to palie stine in a wink of an eye.We have to be careful from applying human on god.god logic is different, it is illogical in human terms,Those who lalk of seeing infinity in every thing is seeing god should easily understand that,as part of the unconscious knowledge.

    • tony says :

      amothman33,
      The reincarnation is also the aspect of Seth which I don’t fully embrace. It’s not that I dismiss it, but like you say it deviates from what matters which is the present.
      I just wanted to take you up on the issue of living in an ocean of potentiality being an Islamic viewpoint. I’d argue that rather than being an Islamic viewpoint, it is an islamic interpretation, particularly a Sufi interpretation. I work with devout Muslims and they are no less fatalistic than most Christians or atheists. In the same way that the mystical tendencies of all religions are also indistinguishable.

      • Scott Preston says :

        Seth’s explanation of “reincarnation” is a bit nuanced, given that time doesn’t really exist on the other side of what he calls the “camouflage universe.” On this side of the veil or “camouflage”, we interpret the notion of “reincarnation” in those terms familiar to us — as succession of lives, playing out different roles at different historical periods. On the other side of the camouflage, where time does not exist as we think of it, the perception is different, and all “lives” or roles or selves of an “oversoul” are lived or performed simultaneously, so there is no “reincarnation” per se in that framework. Because, in this physical framework , our thinking proceeds in steps or sequences or successions, we tend to interpret or perceive events as following in succession — the “train of thought” mode, rather than the “everything all-at-once” mode. There are not so much memories of past lives lived, but “bleed throughs” from kindred “selves” (consciousness “families”) who are likewise fragments of the same core self or “oversoul”. So “reincarnation” is an interpretation, somewhat distorted, because of our time orientation.

        That said, what to make of this poem by Rumi

        “I died as a mineral and became a plant,
        I died as plant and rose to animal,
        I died as animal and I was Man.
        Why should I fear? When was I less by dying?
        Yet once more I shall die as Man, to soar
        With angels blest; but even from angelhood
        I must pass on: all except God doth perish.
        When I have sacrificed my angel-soul,
        I shall become what no mind e’er conceived.
        Oh, let me not exist! for Non-existence
        Proclaims in organ tones, ‘To Him we shall return.'”

        • LittleBigMan says :

          Enlightening. Thank you, Scott. Just when I think I know what Seth was talking about, I learn something I didn’t quite get before. We need to have more of us challenge Seth so we can hear more of your illuminating and divine thoughts. 🙂

  15. LittleBigMan says :

    You’re welcome, amothman33.

  16. amothman33 says :

    Hi Tony
    humans have nothing but interpretation or imitation, prophets however are not interpretor no imitator, they conveyer of truth communicated to them from the source. This type of truth I call islamic views ,meaning the conveyor is in complete surrendering position.
    the question of knowledge descension from God is debatable ever since the beginning,however in light of channeling the process may be more undestood.that is why all prophets are accused of being insane or being a sorcerer.
    we are living in an age of interpretation,the day of hermeneutic has arrived as was heralded by the quran.
    A bunch of jew came to Mohamad and asked him to relate his god to them in answeing he says ..he is the one , the one that resort to him every thing, the one who begets nor was he begotten.He is the non-comparable. This type of communications which I call islamic views. It is worth mentioning that Mohammad introduces all his verses wIth the word say,meaning that he is instructed to say this.It is not interpretation nor imitation. When the followers were asked ,do you know that he is send by god,their answer in not yes or no but that they trust the messege he is delivering,the opposite side said we deny what you have accepted. It is refusal or acceptance.
    Hi scott
    It is a question of interpretation. No one has been on the other side, no one can say there no time or space on the other side,nor one can say preception is different,nor that all lives or roles of selves of an oversoul are lived or performed simultaneously.This is like throwing stones in a dark cave. another story of diluting resopnsibility
    moving between the layers of creation has no resemblance to reincarnation according to my interpretation. We are all part plant ,part animal,part angel,part devil , part fire ,part water, part air and part dust.We are in a contiual shifting mode both phtsically and mentally.It is a question of degree.Every perish but his face, that is why I keep insisting that the messege is moral
    A man came to Mohammd to teach him the message of islam,he told him not to lie. He asked is that all . Mohammand told him that is all.No wonder all relegion is summarized into two words ..justice and truthfullness. May god help me to be truthful and just.

    • tony says :

      Hi amothman,
      I understand what you’re saying, it’s a question of faith, but most are limited to going through the motions.
      Regarding your comment to Scott on our inability to know whether time and space exists on the other side. Since time and space do not exist independently from ourselves (on that I think we all agree) and we create time and space, it follows that spacetime doesn’t exist on the other side. Otherwise there would be no other side, it would simply be a continuation of our present existence.

    • Scott Preston says :

      I am quite busy, momentarily, helping a farmer friend push to get his crop planted — as we are quite late seeding here because of the prolonged winter. Probably for the next few days, anyway.

      Nonetheless, I do want to comment on this. To be “human” is merely a definition. And whatever of “spiritual” or human progress we have made has always been a matter of discarding or overturning the “definition:” When Seth states, for example, that we are not fulfilling our core capabilities because of “limiting beliefs”, at the VERY core of this constellation of limiting beliefs (called “common sense”) is an implicit definition of what it means to be “human” — as in “I’m only human!” This is supposed to explain practically everything, or be an excuse for not acting beyond the definition.

      Nietzsche — practically all of Nietzsche is a questioning of the definition “human”, as it has been given in religion, morality, philosophy, science, etc — and he finds it wanting. As opposed to the “human”, he has, therefore “the free spirit” who has overcome definition and even self-definition.

      We have actually “defined” ourselves into a corner, and we have adopted the definition as our human “form”. To escape the definition — to go out of bounds, as it were — an to act contrary to the definition, is to invite either martyrdom or perhaps incarceration in a mental institution. The definition, which constructs the human form and specifies what it means to be “human”, encompasses what is otherwise referred to as our “self-understanding”, which has, of course, changed continuously in human history.

      This “definition” is the “ghost in the machine”, as it were. In fact, it could be said to be the entirety of what we’ve been calling “the foreign installation”.

      But more on that later.

      • srosesmith says :

        Thank you, Scott. This is very important. Another light on the subject is given by Emmanuel Levinas (and Judaic tradition) : that we are still working to become fully human. The genuinely human is far from the “human all too human” excusing of our lack of humanity, our being inhumane to other life forms. What’s best in us, and what we can become, is the Human in Blake’s sense of the word, and in common religious terms, our being made “in the image of the Divine.”

      • LittleBigMan says :

        “I am quite busy, momentarily, helping a farmer friend push to get his crop planted — as we are quite late seeding here because of the prolonged winter. Probably for the next few days, anyway. ”

        That’s a terrific kind of “busy.” My moments as a child spending time in orchards and on farms were filled with inspiration. Nothing beats spending a couple of hours with an apricot tree, consuming its sweeter than honey fruit, and then dozing off in its shade. Or looking up at night and seeing all those billions of stars at night that seem only an arm’s length away sometime — not to mention looking at the “Milky Way” every night.

        It certainly beats listening to the leaf blower every other day; like it’s happening to me again right now 🙂

        “To be “human” is merely a definition.”

        That’s the truth itself.

        “To escape the definition — to go out of bounds, as it were — an to act contrary to the definition, is to invite either martyrdom or perhaps incarceration in a mental institution.”

        It seems to me that there are ways of “escaping the definition” that– over very long time — can avoid those endings. If “escaping the definition” involves some sort of loss of control, then it could very well lead to those ends.

        However, if escaping the definition involves a motivation to act justly, selflessly, and righteously, at first and for a very long time, hardships may ensue, but quite strangely, this also seems to eventually attract the spirit of ‘power’ from the depths of the universe. It is magnificent to watch this power in action and at work. Literally, it has the ability to move heaven and earth and nothing and no one can stop it — even to the utter amazement and astonishment of those who try it.

        When religions speak of the importance of righteous acts, this, I believe, is truly their aim: to help us attract to the “ego consciousness” this immense and unstoppable power from the depths of the universe.

        The key here is to act righteously without any expectation in light of the direst of circumstances. It is a Yoga of consciousness.

        ““I’m only human!”

        Indeed:

  17. amothman33 says :

    Hi Tony
    The human is a late comer to earth.Time and space were there before him.He was endowed with the tools of perception in order to explore and discover.The sufis say God was a c
    oncealed treasure and he created the creation,specially the human to know him.It is a journey of knowledge in order to appreciate his action and to be a good student im implementing his instruction. Space and time are and continue to be after the extinction of everything,but in what form I don’t want to speculate. On the question of faith, everything in the universe has a faith, even the atheist has a faith in negation.
    Hi Scott
    Definition is another interpretation, definition is a moving concept. The danger appears when one sticks to one definition, as you said at the end of your comment. That is why there is no bounds to definition. This is the beauty of the divine potentiality that contains all possibilities.
    On the image of the divine, no one knows the definition of that image; however, that dosent prevent us from pursuing that definition. Moses ask to see god, the answer was:”You cannot see me, but look to the mountain when it is stabilised in its place you will see me.” When god exposed himself to the mountain, the mountain demolished. Moses fell to the ground, and when he recovered, he realised god cannot be seen. The door to knowing god is closed, and this is another beauty to keep as on continuous search, and that is what we are seeing in the field of science, going from particle to anotherand the perplexity at the appearance of the wave,
    One should not forget the concept of architypes or models in this context.

    • Scott Preston says :

      The universe is a universe of intent. As long as there is consciousness, which is intentional, there will be a reality corresponding to that intent. It doesn’t necessarily have to be human consciousness, because “human” is only one expression consciousness can assume. Space and time are intentional objects, and cannot be absent an awareness which perceives them as extension and duration relative to itself.

      I prefer not to use the name “God”, as it comes loaded with ideological baggage and is often confused with a concept. In Castaneda, “God” is avoided completely except as the form of the human archetype, but is otherwise called “dark sea of awareness” or just “intent”. Seth avoids “God” completely and prefers to speak in terms of “All That Is”. Oftentimes, “God” is only the human image or group ego or “Wego” (as David Loy put it) projected outwards and writ large over the world.

      The present time is interesting in this respect, is that there is a kind of constant quest to discover the right name of “God”. A lot of so-called “atheism” is not what it seems — it is a refusal to submit to a mere abused name, “God” constantly used in vain and for human egotistical motives. So, almost all “unbelievers” are not what they seem, even to themselves. They are simply in search of the proper name for that which is beyond the tyranny of the concept and narrow-mindedness of ideology.

      • tony says :

        Hi amothman,
        From my perspective we (by we I mean consciousness for want of a better word) are actively creating time and space. I don’t think we need quantum physics to tell us this, at an individual level we can simply observe how our thoughts and actions alter the way reality unfolds. Any linear explanation of how time and space appeared doesn’t make sense since the only time it exists is in the present.
        When I refer to faith, I am not referring to the conviction of the existence of God, or the negation of God, but a state of being focussed on maintaining a balance between the opposing forces.

  18. amothman33 says :

    Thanks for Scott and for Tony, I fully accept both interpretations.

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